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 Gliding, pro cons and interesting details

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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Mar 28 Oct 2008, 00:41

why this kind of landing?
why is the tail still in the air?
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Mar 28 Oct 2008, 01:17

Eurofighter a scris:
why this kind of landing?
why is the tail still in the air?
pirat
maybe that is the way it's supposed to be Smile
i know we were told different, with both wheels down, but there are differences in glider landing here in romania too, and you know it Smile
for example, at deva i was thaught to land with the airbrake full out, and when i flew with mr. Covic from Pitesti he told me it's better to make it in such a way, that, when you touch the ground, the airbrake is fully closed Question

nice photos antonov!
BTW i flew an An-2 two weeks ago
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Mar 28 Oct 2008, 01:47

Eurofighter a scris:
why this kind of landing?
why is the tail still in the air?
pirat

Maybe the shot was taken right when the main wheel touched the ground. Eventually the tail will settle as well. I know that for a tail-dragger, you're supposed to land on the main gears first, but right away have your rear wheel touch the ground too, so esentially it looks like you're touching down with all three gears at the same time...

So again, I think the above picture was taken just as the guy was touching the ground.
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Mar 28 Oct 2008, 08:36

Capt_Vio a scris:
Eurofighter a scris:
why this kind of landing?
why is the tail still in the air?
pirat

Maybe the shot was taken right when the main wheel touched the ground. Eventually the tail will settle as well. I know that for a tail-dragger, you're supposed to land on the main gears first, but right away have your rear wheel touch the ground too, so esentially it looks like you're touching down with all three gears at the same time...

So again, I think the above picture was taken just as the guy was touching the ground.

the idea was, that we were learned, and all our flight manuals state that, the taildragger should land with both wheels touching the ground at the same time. it's logical if you think about it, because that means that you are landing at the slowest speed, and with a preety much high angle of attack, thus not permitting the glider to hit hard and jump again Smile
and mostly this idea of contact at the lowest speed is very usefull in crosscountry flying, where you never know what your landing strip might be Smile
it's a very tricky thing to do, and it takes a lot of practice, but believe me, the glider teaches you to fly. I love you
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Mar 28 Oct 2008, 22:39

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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MesajSubiect: Blanik L13 and other taildragger landings   Mier 29 Oct 2008, 03:30

Citat :
maybe that is the way it's supposed to be
i know we were told different, with both wheels down, but there are differences in glider landing here in romania too, and you know it

Bull's-eye! That's the right answer; that's how it's supposed to be for this Blanik.

There are two distinct ways of landing a taildragger glider: flown-on and hold-off. The recommanded landing attitude for the L13 is the one for a flown-on landing. To achieve this the glider should be held in a level attitude to allow the main wheel to touch-down while the tail is still in the air. The landing roll is done in this manner and the tail will drop once there's not enough speed to keep it up. This happens accompanied by a bang and that unpleasnt feeling of metal crashed on the ground. I don't like it. However, this is recommended due to the fragility of Blanik's tail structure.

When I was checked-out in Blanik I had to land like that and few times afterwards. The I switched to the hold-off profile which is the one taught in Ro for the B2. I had no problem. I felt more comfortable doing it held off and thought some people are too exaggerated regarding what Blanik's tail can withstand. Until one day at the field I asked why the Blanik is not flying. The answer was a day before someone broke the tail.

The B2 is much stronger than the Blanik. I've seen it sometimes taking a lot of abuse. Therefore the hold-off technique can be used. Or as my old instructors use to chant: "round-up, listen for the main wheel whisper barely touching the grass tips, speed decreases, pull stick back, don't baloon, don't drop it on the ground", and then the sum of them all "the correct landing is done with the stick in your belly".

And by the way, never heard aberrations such as the one to land with full spoiler closed or open.
Citat :
Maybe the shot was taken right when the main wheel touched the ground. Eventually the tail will settle as well. I know that for a tail-dragger, you're supposed to land on the main gears first, but right away have your rear wheel touch the ground too, so esentially it looks like you're touching down with all three gears at the same time...

So again, I think the above picture was taken just as the guy was touching the ground.

If you trust the tail will settle after the main touch the ground you're on for a tough ride (unless you meant "eventually" to be after you bleed all your speed, which happens after you've flown it - which would be what I explained above). If you still have speed and the tail "settles", the next moment you'll be airborne again. Then depending on pilot's action there may be a smooth landing or a PIO dance. The latter may be conductive to structural damage or more.

And the sequence "I know that for a tail dragger..." is not correct either (as I explained above with the flow-on technique).

Citat :
the idea was, that we were learned, and all our flight manuals state that, the taildragger should land with both wheels touching the ground at the same time. it's logical if you think about it, because that means that you are landing at the slowest speed, and with a preety much high angle of attack, thus not permitting the glider to hit hard and jump again
and mostly this idea of contact at the lowest speed is very usefull in crosscountry flying, where you never know what your landing strip might be

That is correct 100%, in most circumstances. However, if you fly a frail structure like the Blanik, it doesn't help you at all to land short if that landing is the last one for your glider. So, if one can not do a nice smooth hold off landing as virusu described, the flown-on makes more sense.

Just out of curiosity (changing a bit the discussion). Are side-slips/forward slips taught now in Ro and accepted as a way of a better approach technique? I know I did that and was sooo close to be grounded.

Citat :
it's a very tricky thing to do, and it takes a lot of practice, but believe me, the glider teaches you to fly.

virusu, this phrase is a gem. I think you should put it in your signature.

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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Mier 29 Oct 2008, 07:39

What exactly do you guys mean by the phrase "A glider teaches you how to fly?" What? An airplane doesn't fly? I think flying a powered aircraft is more complex than flying a glider. There are lots of things that one needs to consider... Look I respect you all who have flown gliders before, but let's not get carried away with it... I've been unfortunate enough to have an engine failure and had to glide my plane to a power off landing on a farm field, but it was pretty damn standard. The worst part about it is that I had to take care of a lot of damn paper work after the fact... So with a glide ratio of a glider, any reasonable pilot could land it... It's not magic guys... it's simple physics...

... just my 2 cents...


Ultima editare efectuata de catre Capt_Vio in Mier 29 Oct 2008, 09:21, editata de 1 ori
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Mier 29 Oct 2008, 08:51

@ lancer_two_one:

side slips are not welcome to see in "fresh" glider pilots in Romania, but they tend to get accepted once the pilot evolves.

@Capt_Vio:
U should try gliding, it's more to it than what you said.
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Mier 29 Oct 2008, 11:07

ratus is right about the side-slipis. but, as you grow in expierence you should know perffectly where the third turn should be made, so that you don't have to do slide-slips. like my instructor says all the time: a good pilot is the one who knows how to get out of a bad situation, but an excellent pilot is the one who knows how to prevent a bad situation.Wink

@lancer: the story with the pilot hearing the wheel through the grass is still alive and very usefull i might add.

@vio: i'm sorry we didn't get the chance to go to the airfield. you would have known the difference betwen glider and airplane. and about that phrase, it's supposed to mean that it teachesy you how to FLY, not, how to pilot an aircraft... believe me, i know military pilots, and airline pilots, who back that statement, and facts have shown it to be true Smile
but let's burry the hatchet, and i promisse you, the next time you come here, we'll go gliding Smile
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Mier 29 Oct 2008, 14:35

Vio don't take me wrong, and as far as I can understand I'd say don't take RATus and virusu wrong. No one has anything against power pilots and this discussion was/is not meant to be confruntational. At least in my case (I don't know for the other guys) I happily fly both. And I have to say I did it in the wrong sequence since I started with power and then got into the gliders.

And to your point, it is not a must to fly a glider prior to flying a power plane. But I'd say it is recommanded. I could go on and on on this. For now just one reason and one evidence.

Reason: Beyond a simplified more forgiving context to teach you piloting technique, glider flying teaches you energy management (EM). EM is not that obvious to every power pilot. There's a touch on it when you do your simulated forced approaches during the basic training, and I bet you had your fair share of them. That hepled you to land safetly when your engine quit. But then as power pilots fly more powerful and reliable machines they loose this focus somehow. A good glider pilot never forgets that.

Evidence: Where are money to be spent for a good pilot training, the training starts with gliding and then moves on to power planes. Just two examples, in US, at USAF Academy and in UK (RAF) its done it this way. Even, or especially for the fighter pilot the understanding and mastering of the energy concept is paramount.


Citat :
So with a glide ratio of a glider, any reasonable pilot could land it... It's not magic guys... it's simple physics...


The glide ratio just buys you more time but it's unimportant for the landing itself. Once you're commited to landing that glide ration is aganst you. No one lands a glider at double digit GR. For landing the pilot kills the GR you're talking about with spoiler and sometimes with side slip (well, the last one still may cause trouble to you once you're on the ground in Ro). Smile

A resonable pilot, even a maore than resonable pilot, in most cases will need some training before flying a glider solo. I flew with power pilots that were never exposed to gliding before and I know that. And you're right it's not magic but's not simple physics either. It's skill and judgment, and for these anyone needs training and an interest to learn everyday.


Citat :
ratus is right about the side-slipis. but, as you grow in expierence you should know perffectly where the third turn should be made, so that you don't have to do slide-slips. like my instructor says all the time: a good pilot is the one who knows how to get out of a bad situation, but an excellent pilot is the one who knows how to prevent a bad situation.

There's a lot of time between your 3rd turn (I think Vio may know this better as the turn to base ) and your touch-down. Things may happen. As a glider pilot, (and not only - this may apply to power flying as well) your best insurance against a nasty surprise is some extra hight. WHich you can get rid of when you feel safe you'll make the field with spoiler and if spoiler not enogh (or windy) with a good slip. In cross wind sometimes is better to use the slip than crabbing. I'll not go further, that's a discussion in itself.
Citat :
@lancer: the story with the pilot hearing the wheel through the grass is still alive and very usefull i might add.

I'm glad. That's a nice, good story and you better stick with it. As it is the chanting I mentioned in my previous message. They will stay true in ages, as long as the principles of flying will not change.

About the little gem phrase. vio, I did not take it at words; I took it at meaning. In a nice metaphoric way it says the glider somehow "tells" you what to do. Then a logic assumption (not spelled by the glider, not by virusu; however implied by him) is if you follow on what the glider is asking for you'll be a better pilot. Therefore it teaches you fly. Smile


This is an intersting and fun discussion guys, however it seems to me we are drifting from what this topic was meant to be. Let's hope the administrators/moderators will not be upset.

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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Mier 29 Oct 2008, 15:02

Capt_Vio a scris:
So with a glide ratio of a glider, any reasonable pilot could land it... It's not magic guys... it's simple physics...

Well Vio, you must try the feeling of entering a downdraft with 2-3 m/s on long final! Then you start making calculations, lower the nose, increase your airspeed and hope you'll get home.
But for me gliders = thermal flight! And nothing compares to that! The feelings and satisfaction of climbing on nothing than air and covering great distances with your map and basic instruments are simply the best you can get. But that's just me. Wink
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Mier 29 Oct 2008, 16:45

You guys are great with your gliders...even if Vio doesn't agree,for me is real magic.
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Mier 29 Oct 2008, 17:06

YR-DNY a scris:
Capt_Vio a scris:
So with a glide ratio of a glider, any reasonable pilot could land it... It's not magic guys... it's simple physics...

Well Vio, you must try the feeling of entering a downdraft with 2-3 m/s on long final! Then you start making calculations, lower the nose, increase your airspeed and hope you'll get home.
But for me gliders = thermal flight! And nothing compares to that! The feelings and satisfaction of climbing on nothing than air and covering great distances with your map and basic instruments are simply the best you can get. But that's just me. Wink

Oh, I don't doubt it's a fantastic feeling... I bet it is. I guess the thing I wanted to point out is that I keep hearing this phrase "If you wanna try "real" flying", then you should try gliding"...

I think shooting an ILS approach with one engine featherd is pretty damn challenging too... throw in some cross wind, poor visibility and an examiner beside you... see my point?

By the way, I can't wait to try gliding... I bet it's awesome!

I DIDN'T MEAN THIS AS AN INSULT TO GLIDER PILOTS... IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM...
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Joi 30 Oct 2008, 00:15

Capt_Vio a scris:
It's not magic guys... it's simple physics...

blasphemy!
you fly with a sailplane and you transport yourself with a plane!! clown
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Joi 30 Oct 2008, 00:18

Eurofighter a scris:
Capt_Vio a scris:
It's not magic guys... it's simple physics...

blasphemy!
you fly with a sailplane and you transport yourself with a plane!! clown
evil one has spoken! lol!
but it's somehow true...Razz
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Joi 30 Oct 2008, 09:06

Ok, let's settle this down! We are mature pilots for God's sake! Razz Flying is great in all aspects and all forms - with or without an engine, with vertical or horizontal propeller Wink - and each category of aircraft has it's own "special thing".

So I guess we're good now, let's have a group hug and leave this topic for croatian aviation! Very Happy
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Joi 30 Oct 2008, 13:52

i moved it all here, so we can carry on, because i think it's a very good discussion, and it also provides information about how flying is done in more countries with different tradition or ideas.
si carry on mates Smile
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Joi 18 Dec 2008, 02:19

virusu a scris:
so carry on mates Smile

It's funny how the conversation stopped, the moment you said this Rolling Eyes I'm sorry I've only found this topic today, but i hope i'll bring it back to life, since i agree with Virusu

lancer_two_one a scris:
Where are money to be spent for a good pilot training, the training starts with gliding and then moves on to power planes. Just two examples, in US, at USAF Academy and in UK (RAF) its done it this way
I'm curious to know if there's any explanation for the fact that the romanian government is paying for the gliding lessons? Was this measure intended to create some sort of foundation for future generations of pilots (both for the airforce and civil operators like the state-company tarom or maybe for Aviatia utilitara) or is it just to keep the teenagers off the streets ? Question And if the answer is #1, then why on earth aren't they recruiting young glider pilots?! Sad

RATus a scris:
side slips are not welcome to see in "fresh" glider pilots in Romania, but they tend to get accepted once the pilot evolves.
I was a bit surprised, when my instructor said to me once, right after take off : "have you done side-slips before ?Well, i'll teach you". It happend in my second year of training, though...(fresh or not?)

I think another meaning for the phrase "the glider teaches you to fly" is that, gliding is very much the ABC of aviation. because it deals with the very basic principles of flight. But gliding is one thing, soaring is another! Wink

@ lancer_two_one: there is another saying, very common in this particular field (unpowered flight): "the glider will fly itself, it is the pilot that usually ruins the flight"
lol!
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Joi 18 Dec 2008, 11:35

DZR a scris:


lancer_two_one a scris:
Where are money to be spent for a good pilot training, the training starts with gliding and then moves on to power planes. Just two examples, in US, at USAF Academy and in UK (RAF) its done it this way
I'm curious to know if there's any explanation for the fact that the romanian government is paying for the gliding lessons? Was this measure intended to create some sort of foundation for future generations of pilots (both for the airforce and civil operators like the state-company tarom or maybe for Aviatia utilitara) or is it just to keep the teenagers off the streets ? Question And if the answer is #1, then why on earth aren't they recruiting young glider pilots?! Sad

yes it was, in years before 1989, i guess at this moment, it's the best option for young people to fly with no money, and we should be greatful, because it's one of the last places on Planet Earth where you can do this.
Although we shouldn't sleep on the thought that this will go on forever, and i hope that soon, we will be able to start our own gliding clubs, with our own gliders. it would be the best thing, because it's a great sport, a great pleasure, and at the way things are looking right now, i'm not sure we could set the stage for some new world class glider pilots. we have Catalin Porumbu who retired from gliding activity, and Mircea Craciun, who remained the last valuable representative for Romania in International Gliding Championships.

About your question: they are recruiting glider pilots, but those glider pilots have to graduate an ATPL course Wink
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Joi 18 Dec 2008, 16:40

they are not recruiting sailplane pilots
they don't even care
the Romanian CAA acknowledges only 10% of the sailplane flight hours with a maximum of 10 hours for total flight experience
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Joi 18 Dec 2008, 16:47

don't you mean 100 hours? Question
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Joi 18 Dec 2008, 17:24

I mean 10!
if you have 1000 hours, you still get 10
10% with a maximum of 10!
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Joi 18 Dec 2008, 18:03

oh yeeeah Razz
better than nothing...
no meaning to talk about the reasons why they don't look for people with earlier flying experience...
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Joi 18 Dec 2008, 21:31

They're not interested in you're flying skills, or experience...they're interested in how good you are with maths, because math olympians are automatically admitted in the Air Force, if they pass the medical exam, of course...But here starts another discussion Rolling Eyes
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MesajSubiect: Re: Gliding, pro cons and interesting details   Joi 18 Dec 2008, 21:44

DZR a scris:
They're not interested in you're flying skills, or experience...they're interested in how good you are with maths, because math olympians are automatically admitted in the Air Force, if they pass the medical exam, of course...But here starts another discussion Rolling Eyes

about the ones who have the places warm, and the others who have to get the highest grades to catch a place on the remaining spots Razz
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